Solvent based coatings: A thing of the past?

[HeliMike]

Hey all. Been outta the paint/body industry for way too long now but from what I understand and have heard from ex-coworkers at White and Peters, the solvent based world of paints is all but totally gone now. I know R-M's Diamont (which sucks cuz the DC92 clear was amazing stuff) and Glasurit lineups have gone the way of the do-do bird for waterborne systems, but what about PPG, DuPont, Sher-Will and the likes? Are they still producing the solvent based base-coats and clear-coats and are they still available? Gonna have some paint work ahead of me come summer time so thought I'd ask.
Geoff? Lanny? You guys are in the biz. Thoughts?

[Geoff]

I've been using sikkens the past few years as they still carry a solvent based line but I think it may be getting phased out from what I heard. Gerry is the guy to ask on sikkens info, maybe he will chime in.

[Jerome]

I am a licensed painter..... Here's the scoop.

The federal Gov't has adopted similar legislation as California concerning VOC content in the automotive repair industry. The Manufacturing industry got an exemption from the new rules. ( although hey don't typically use base coat clear coat systems). As a result ALL paint suppliers now fall under the same new rules: VOC limits below ( now i'm going on a poor memory here ) 2.0 grams per something.... This is as a whole, base coat and top coat combined. So DuPont or whoever can have a solvent bourn base coat as long as the total VOC's, including top coat, fall below the allowable limit. Comprendé ? :'(  DuPont does have a water free base coat. So does R-M / Glasurit and a few others. These systems however are not up to the challenge of colour matching as they are missing several metallics and toners in the old systems. The new solvent bases use lesser quality solvents because the better ( old ) ones push the system over the limits. These " better " solvents improve the application, hold out, colour matching etc of the product. They do work, but they are a low line of paint, using lesser quality chemicals ( this I heard straight from my paint rep about their system). It is VERY political, and therefore there is little desire for the paint companies to abandon the water systems. DO NOT BE AFRAID! the water system has improved my colour matching and the paint will stick. IMHO, R-M has the best system. I have sprayed Sher-will and its $HIT. Period. I have sprayed the DuPont and it is good, but not as good as the R-M. The DuPont is ALL water based. Toners and all. They CANNOT freeze, they have water in them. They also smell similar to your house paint..... The R-M has no water in any of the toners. They are allowed to be shipped below 0 Celsius unlike the others. Because R-M has no water in the solvent until you reduce it, you can convert it to a solvent system - in a pinch. The technology in the DuPont is fairly new to us over here. Its an entirely different set of chemicals and pigments to make up the water base. The R-M on the other hand is still a solvent base that you reduce with water. So once you spray it, there is still a chemical bond as opposed to only a physical bond in the water only systems.- so an added benefit.

Basically all of the B.C. interior has switched to R-M / Glasurit. My paint rep, in his territory, has something like 8 or so to 1 compared to the other brands. I like spraying the water as far as sprayability and colour match go. You do need a good booth. Gone are the days of spraying in your garage. ( unless your happy with the new solvent system ) ** EDIT** The new water bases just take longer to dry than the old.** EDIT** That is the only noticeable difference I have seen.

Anything else??  


DC92 ?? there's far better clears, that are easier to spray, out now compared to that old stuff.

[bufferman]

down here in washington we still have the solvent based paints we havent gone to water base yet in wa with most of the lines R-M / Glasurit  a friend uses and it is still solvent based good luck

steve

[HeliMike]

Wow... Thanks dude!

A few more questions for ya since you're a painter and all  

Assuming I am using the new R-M base/clear system (that's the system I know er.... knew) can I still use my old DeVilbiss GTI HVLP gun or do I need to switch to a stainless-guts equipped conventional style gun? I've heard HVLP has gone bye-bye too. True?

And you say the new system can be converted easily? As in I can use some of the old "UR" reducers I have stashed away instead of reducing it with water?

And I like the old DC92!!!   I have 5 or 6 gallons of it left still and since I have mixed/sprayed it enough times I wanna use it. I've had good luck with adding a tad more reducer in it for the first three coats then over-reducing the final coat and speeding up the old arm and it lays down pretty damned good - although I did get lazy once and that burned me BIG TIME!   I'm still having nightmares of clearcoat dripping on the floor!  

Thanks for the heads up Jerome!

[HeliMike]

One more thing... I am spraying it in a booth not a garage. 

FWIW, KMS Parts in Coquitlam has a booth they rent out for $200/24 hours. Haven't seen it yet but a good friend of mine mentioned it to me a few weeks ago. I think they bought the coquitlam autobody building that was next door to them.

[bufferman]

not sure what guns to use but i think he uses a sata hvlp gun and i dont paint much except for my self if i have to i do more of the color sanding and polishing but back in the day when i did paint a little more i used DC-92 also and loved it

[Jerome]

Wow... Thanks dude!

A few more questions for ya since you're a painter and all  

Assuming I am using the new R-M base/clear system (that's the system I know er.... knew) can I still use my old DeVilbiss GTI HVLP gun or do I need to switch to a stainless-guts equipped conventional style gun? I've heard HVLP has gone bye-bye too. True?

And you say the new system can be converted easily? As in I can use some of the old "UR" reducers I have stashed away instead of reducing it with water?

And I like the old DC92!!!   I have 5 or 6 gallons of it left still and since I have mixed/sprayed it enough times I wanna use it. I've had good luck with adding a tad more reducer in it for the first three coats then over-reducing the final coat and speeding up the old arm and it lays down pretty damned good - although I did get lazy once and that burned me BIG TIME!   I'm still having nightmares of clearcoat dripping on the floor!  

Thanks for the heads up Jerome!

Devilbis GTI is fine. The old brass or aluminum internals are fine. The SS thing seems to be half myth half truth. If you left the paint in the gun all day every day, then you MIGHT have a problem. My rep told me its not too big a deal. I haven't sprayed with a GTI for 5 or 6 years, but I'm still using my 10 yr old HVLP SATA NR2000 1.4mm for clear, so you're fine. As far as converting the new system to solvent, you have to get your hands on some old BC100 mixing clear. It's basically just clear base coat. Now we add 020 to " convert " the base to water bourn, as theres no water in the tinters. It allows the water reducer to mix homogeneously with the colour. By replacing the 020 converter with BC100 you have a solvent bourn base. I haven't done this as there is no need for me to do it, plus we are clean out of BC100. You will have a hard time finding some. I don't think White & Peters is even allowed to sell it IF they had any. You might have to " steal " it......  Anyway, take the base coat / BC100 mixture and reduce as normal 2:1 with UR reducers. I have been told by my paint rep that when he did it, it sprayed just like the old base coat with no major difference. You just have to find some BC100. If you are using a proper heated booth, you could try the water base. Its not that bad. Or pay someone to come paint it for you when you're all ready to go.....?

Now about DC92..... Yeah it's fine. It just likes to run if you're not ontop of things, and takes a while to dry. I use R-M's DC5800 and Glasurit's 923-200. Both are excellent clears, the first for small jobs and the later for larger. I prefer the later.

Just a note, If you are doing a solid colour, just use UNO. It is unchanged and you can clear over it if you want a clear coat....

[Jerome]

As far as the water bourn base goes here is the run down. Prep repaired areas with 500 grit. Prep blend areas with 800 or finer. Use blending clear over blend areas, none over primed areas.

Spraying:
Spray your base as if it were primer. ie, very wet and thick. You want it shiny and smooth. its not going to run easily like the old solvent did. repeat until you have coverage, usually 1-2 coats. I wouldn't recommend doing too much blending with these coats. Do a little fade / blend out so that you're not just leaving a hard wet edge. Let flash. Then blend out with a " Diamont Coat ". What I mean is, pretend you are spraying the old solvent bourn Diamont ( or equivalent ) base coat: medium wet coat. - and do your blending with this coat, covering your primed areas and blending into your blend areas. Let flash.

Effect Coat:
Stand back ( 12 -18 inches ) and do a very quick dust coat over all the based areas. This coat is NOT wet. it is just to orient the metallics. You don't want to put hardly any product on. You are only orienting metallics on the surface, nothing more. If the panel temp drops more than a degree or so you got it too wet. Thats how dry this coat is.

NOTE: skip the last two steps if you are doing a solid colour. - Just " blend it and send it "

Flash times:
you will need a IR temp gun to compare the surface temps. This will help a ton. As the water evaporates it cools the panel, like sweating. When the based areas are the same temp as the non-based areas the water has evaporated. If you trap water under the clear, your job is probably screwed.

[BUSDADDY]

Great suff here guys but I've got a partial highjack this just reminded me of:
Anyone got any Dupont 192S or V192S Imron activator kicking around the back of thier paint cabinets they want to "dispose of" properly?

[Bruce]

Anyone got any Dupont 192S ...

There's a microscopic possibility I may have some of that from the early 90s.  I'll have a look on Sat.

[HeliMike]

It just so happens I do have some BC100 mixing clear! Like 8 quarts of it IIRC. Me and a good friend used to work at WP back in the day and one of the paint reps told us to use BC100 to mix candies/pearls with and spray it as a base instead of mixing it with the clear cuz it makes it much easier to spray and if ya F&*$ it up (how can you fuck up spraying base???) it's a lot easier (not to mention cheaper and less time consuming) to fix - so we stocked up on it. Not to mention much less prone to striping. Just shoot regular clear over top of it and it looked amazing. We did his 67 Datsun 510 in 3 coats of Viper blue base, and 3 coats of BC100 mixed with some House of Kolors Kandy Blue over top then 4 coats of DC92... Looked like you could dive into it! It was awesome. I'm talking complete jobs though not blending. I'm happy to say I have never done a blend before. I've seen it done but never tried it. Kudos to you for being able to do it, but seeing as that's your job then it's nothing to ya right?   

Jerome, thanks a bunch for the 1st hand advice! 
Greatly appreciated

And I have no idea how you spray with an NR2000?!?!? I tried one years back but I swear I would have died of old age before getting the paint on the car!!!  I used the old Sata HVLP primer gun (the grey one) to put base on (can't remember the model name/#) But then again I was also 20 years old and even more impatient than I am now. 

Jeez I feel like I just traveled back 15 years in time! 

Thanks again. That's advice I'll take to the bank.
-Mike

[steveo_32]

ahh water base!!

[dawerks]

Can paint still be ordered from the States? 

And can the water bourne be used by a hobbyist/garage painter? 

[Jerome]

Can paint still be ordered from the States? 

And can the water bourne be used by a hobbyist/garage painter? 

No. It cannot be imported, its basically in the same category as leaded gasoline and leaded house paints. W&P's can sell some non-compliant primers, epoxies and the like, but the keep track of who they sell it to and report it to the Gov't. You cannot get any of the old stuff anywhere.

As far as a hobbyist / garage painter you simply cannot get enough airflow through your garage to paint anything larger than one panel. Think of how long it takes for your garage floor to dry after you've washed it out before you paint ( you guys do this RIGHT??!!!!!!! ). It takes forever, especially in the crevasses and corners. Now imagine this on your quarter panel or anywhere else. Little crevasses like your drip rails, or a multi faceted piece like a heater channel will hold all the moisture in the " V's " for hours in your garage. In our booth with 8000 cfm @ 72C takes about 10min for a panel to flash. We use forced air blowers to assist, but it only knocks off about 40% of the flash time. These blowers make our compressor run full time while they are on..... So unless you have an industrial size compressor and LOTS of filtered air moving through your garage, I would say no - not easily.



@ Helimike,
make sure you do an inner or two or a test panel with the BC100 mixture before you tackle the job in mind

[dawerks]

That sucks. 

Is this just for BC or are there some provinces that are lagging behind?    I have access to a spray booth, but the fans are a no go so water bourne is out for me.  Just when I was thinking of moving out of ancient SS technology to BC/CC they change it on me again!

Maybe we'll have to smuggle in paint from the states and put house paint labels on the cans??  

[Jerome]

Sorry.... all provinces are the same.
Here is some better info. Note the 70% water content of water base and you can understand why it would take so long to get all that water out...
http://www.voccompliance.com/faq.asp


some more usefull info...
http://www.rondex.ca/environment-canada-low-voc-legislation-update.html

Environment Canada Website:
"Starting June 19, 2010, products that exceed the VOC concentration limits can no longer be imported or manufactured in Canada, and on December 19, 2010, the sale and offer for sale of automotive refinishing products in excess of the VOC concentration limits will also be prohibited. This will allow suppliers to sell any remaining products that exceed the VOC concentration limits until December 18, 2010. For these products to be sold after December 18, 2010, they must have VOC concentration limits below the levels specified in the Regulations."..... read more Here http://www.ec.gc.ca/cov-voc/default.asp?lang=En&n=71378DBB-1

[rustybus]

KMS sells omni which is a lower class solvent type base . I used it 4 years on my father in law newport. The color is still good not faded it spends 24/7 in the weather. Used 2002 clear on it.  I don't mind the product but it hasn't impressed me on its hiding qualities.

Mike also another tid bit of information Body shops are provincailly regulated . While airports are federally regulated. So we can use old paint waister guns like the good ol 502 And we spray shit thats bin banned for years. Gotta love the goverment eh!

[Bruce]

While airports are federally regulated. So we can use old paint waister guns like the good ol 502 And we spray shit thats bin banned for years. Gotta love the goverment eh!

Environment Canada is Federal.  Their regs apply to you.

.

[surgerypending]

Just so u know...the people who patrol our boarders were trained two weeks ago on the new VOC laws.....and the fines are heavy!

[rustybus]

While airports are federally regulated. So we can use old paint waister guns like the good ol 502 And we spray shit thats bin banned for years. Gotta love the goverment eh!

Guess again.  Environment Canada is Federal.  Their regs apply to you.

Enviro canada maybe federal. But sorry Bruce you are wrong . There rules(Bodyshop regs)  do not apply to us. I honestly don't know why but they don't . Considering all the internal and external audits we have to go through if it was an issue we'd have to change.  They make sure our nitrocellulose(don't no if I spelt that right but I'm a painter you can't accuss me of being smart) lacquer is not time Xed they don't seem to care that we use it.

[Jerome]

 

While airports are federally regulated. So we can use old paint waister guns like the good ol 502 And we spray shit thats bin banned for years. Gotta love the goverment eh!

Guess again.  Environment Canada is Federal.  Their regs apply to you.

Enviro canada maybe federal. But sorry Bruce you are wrong . There rules(Bodyshop regs)  do not apply to us. I honestly don't know why but they don't . Considering all the internal and external audits we have to go through if it was an issue we'd have to change.  They make sure our nitrocellulose(don't no if I spelt that right but I'm a painter you can't accuss me of being smart) lacquer is not time Xed they don't seem to care that we use it.

If you are in the Collision repair industry YOU ARE REGULATED FEDERALLY. Period. If you are industrial or a manufacturer ( such as Kenworth was ) you re not regulated or stuck with the new rules.. Did you read the links I posted? Go into White & Peters and try to order some Diamont Base coat. You won't get any because it is FEDERALLY REGULATED. The Bodyshop rules do apply to everyone in Canada. Do some research on the Environment Canada website and see what you find.
- another thing, If the Environment Canada rule don't apply, Who DO they apply to? And why has EVERY collision repair shop in the province switched to low VOC top coats? And why can't White & Peters import any of the old stuff? And why did my shop just invest nearly 6 figures to upgrade everything to be able to spray water??....

Sorry rustybus, you're facts are a little rusty too

[josh]

So I may have missed this but does this only apply to base/clear and not single stage?

[Bruce]

While airports are federally regulated. So we can use old paint waister guns like the good ol 502 And we spray shit thats bin banned for years. Gotta love the goverment eh!

Guess again.  Environment Canada is Federal.  Their regs apply to you.

Enviro canada maybe federal. But sorry Bruce you are wrong . There rules(Bodyshop regs)  do not apply to us.

Whether they do or don't is probably moot.  Since the nasty products can't be manufactured in, or imported into Canada, eventually, you won't be using the high VOC stuff.

My experience with the EC enforcment officers is that they are pretty lax.  If you're making an attempt, they are usually happy even though you may not meet every nazi detail.  They normally deal with people who have never heard of the regulations.  One officer I was talking to in detail even admitted that I knew more about their regs than he did!  I also determined that they themselves were in violation of their own regulations!!!

[Jerome]

So I may have missed this but does this only apply to base/clear and not single stage?

I have answered this in another thread somewhere, but R-M has been able to keep their UNO single stage line by changing to a low VOC reducer and Drier. The drier isn't a big deal ( changed from SC01 to SC00 ) but the new reducers ( VR00 & VR01 ) cause a little die back. R-M has reclassified the UR reducers to go into other low VOC primers and clears and therefore skirted the having to use the VR reducers in UNO. Remember how I mentioned the whole paint system ( primer, sealer, base, clear ) is weighed as a package for VOC regulation? With the VR reducers in UNO they were able to keep the VOC's below the limit. I've been mixing Glasurit clear in the UNO and then using the same clear to give it a clearcoat on top so I can blend it out. ( instead of panel painting.) This has worked VERY well, and keeps the time and costs down.

[rustybus]

I typed up a big spel with all the info to state my case . Some how I lost it all so you guy win by default I'm to lazy too type it all out agian

And Jerome your a meaner

[Jerome]

And Jerome your a meaner

Thanks, I'll take it as a compliment 

[rustybus]

No problem if your ever in abby stop by for a beer my verbal skills are a touch better than my computer skills