Author Topic: Electrial Problems... Where To Start (Read 5529 times)

bwaz · « **on:** July 20, 2006, 08:28:30 AM »

getting down to the nitty gritty of getting the 68 convert on the road, have a few problems, no signals, no brake lights. Someone was going to replace the wiring harness, which I have, but looks like they just started with the front turn signals. The emergency flasher is hanging out of the dash right now... maybe the previous owner thought to start there. My thought before I get in there.... replace all the bulbs with new ones, then start where? THe brake lights could be the switch, and assume I can short that out to be on all the time if I cross the terminals at the switch? Then where.... is there a way to test the flasher relay? Maybe put my meter on the terminals on the flasher, which one? Sorry for typing out loud, just trying to work in an orderly route. any thoughts appreciated!
Brian

bwaz · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2006, 10:14:12 PM »

Progress! Got the tail lights and license light working as well as the front headlights and amber driving lites at the front. No signals yet, the flasher looks ok, but how would you tell? The emergency flasher switch is still hanging off the dash and according to my books shows two wires to it, I've got about six and no idea if something's missing? Will have to check for another diagram maybe the samba? On it goes!
Brian

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2006, 06:04:40 AM »

Six wires? are you sure it's a 68? How many wires to the flasher? I wonder if the harness has been changed.

bwaz · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2006, 08:26:18 AM »

It the switch for the emergency flasher that has the six wires, with about another four or five spots for wires. The flasher itself has four wires on it, and says both \"67\" and \"69\" in larger numbers on it. I'm wondering if the switch needs to be grounded to the body to work? The harness looks original. No other luck yet.
Thanks for the thought.
Brian

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2006, 03:34:17 PM »

Hmmmm..... It should have a 7 pin flasher and a 2 pin emerg switch. Something strange going on.

Try hooking the black/green/white wire to a 2 pin flasher (other pin to bat+ for testing) then connect all the black/green wires together (should be at least 3) then the same thing with all the black/white wires. You won't have emerg flashers or a light in the speedo but the signals should work.

If you have a VW 3 pin flasher from a later car hook the black/green/white to 49a, 31 to ground and + 0r 30(sometimes 15) to power.

You can get that later switch to run the hazard lights but you need both early and late wiring diagrams and a good knowledge of electrical systems. the only thing you might not get is the speedo light.

bwaz · « **Reply #5 on:** July 24, 2006, 08:46:54 AM »

being the flasher itself has only four connections, (and grounded to the body) would this be more of a 69 type unit than a 68. Of course any of the aftermarket units that look like they might work give a chassis number that it's good to or good from. Convertibles don't fall into those numbers and screw that up. I may try the cheap one from airspeed and see if it helps the issue?
thanks
Brian

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2006, 10:37:34 AM »

Ahhh.... well then, for testing take the black/green/white wire off of the flasher and hook it up to a power source, you should have signals that don't blink.

There's a good diagram in the orange bentley book that they say is for aug 69 (70-71 models) that shows that system. Looks fairly straight forward but if your flasher is nfg nothings going to work. It's that damn light in the speedo that makes it complicated, if you can live without it then any aftermarket 2 prong flasher will work.

bwaz · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2006, 12:57:28 PM »

I added power to the flasher and saw that all the blinkers come on, no blink. Seems like it's the flasher. I'll try one to see where it goes, thanks again.

bwaz · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2006, 04:23:36 PM »

Thanks for the input Jason, here's the link to the same issue I was reading on the Samba
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic...ic.php?t=182449
Brian

jason_hamilton · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2006, 05:30:46 PM »

Good explanation from KGP&R:

1968 VWs were a transitional year at best when it came to wiring. There were 3 different flashers used on 68 models with 9 or 3 or 4 terminal (in that order). Because of this, there is no true wiring diagram for mid 68-70 model Bugs & Ghias. But VW does show how the 3 terminal flasher is hooked up in the Bentley Manual; go to Section 10, Page 33, Figure 47 for the proper wiring. When VW discontinued the 9 terminal flasher in early 68, they VERY briefly went to a 3 terminal flasher. Later in 68, they superseded it to a 4 terminal style, basically adding a ground wire circuit for better grounding. Below is a description of how and where the wires go on the 3 and 4 terminal flashers (original style):

Original 3 terminal flasher, mid year 1968, Original VW Part # 211-953-215, 215A, 215B:

This flasher internally grounds to the chassis thru the hold-down screw that attaches the flasher to the dash support bracket.
Terminal + or +49 = Black Wire - goes to terminal + on the Emergency Flasher Switch
Terminal 49a = Black w/Green and White Stripes Wire (two of them actually) - goes to terminal 49a on Emergency Switch, 2nd wire goes to Turn Signal Switch.
Terminal KBL = Blue w/Green Stripe Wire = Goes to the Signal Indicator Light in the Speedo.
Original (and replacement) 4 Terminal Flasher, Late 68-70, Original VW Part # 211-953-215 C.

Looks just like the 3 terminal flasher box above, except it has an extra terminal:
Terminal 31 = Brown Wire - goes to and attaches to chassis ground. The 3 terminal flasher above didn't rate too highly in grounding reliability thru the attachment screw, so they added a ground wire terminal to make sure it REALLY grounded to work properly.
All other wires mentioned above for the 3 terminal flasher is wired the same.
Current replacement for the two flashers above, part #211-953-215 C This is a small box type flasher normally used on the 71-later VWs, both air and water cooled. Terminals have similar numbers, but is wired as follows:
There is no KBL terminal, there is only +49, 49a and 31. They are wired the same way as above for the 4 terminal model. The Blue/Green Wire that would normally be for your dash light (KBL) is \"piggybacked\" with the Black/Green/White Wire to terminal 49a. Works great, in fact a bit better than the original. Just get a \"tie-wrap\" and attach the flasher to the support bracket with it with the terminals facing down (flasher relays work better when terminals are facing down, dunno why, they just do).

bwaz · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2006, 09:51:07 PM »

the old one step forward, two steps back seems to apply here. Got the flashers to work, (thanks Jason) but the dash arrow lights wouldn't work unless I removed the black wire below. Then tried everything with the headlights, seemed ok, turned the dimmer switch.... SMOKE! I burned a wire that goes from the light switch to the high beam light and another light on the other side. After removing the wiper motor and radio, replaced the burned wire and tried again, this time with the tester in hand. Found I had a wire that looks to come from the door jam button switch for the interior light which shorted and did the burn. Removed that but still no signal, or no dash lights. Re-read all the flasher instructions and piggybacked the dash flashing arrow light to the other two and that all seems good. Now only one problem, no low beams, stuck on high. Interesting now that when the dash lights are up, nothing different, but when the dash lights are down, and pull the highbeam arm and the dash lights come on? Obviously still one thing not working, I suspect a ground somewhere, but that's for tomorrow night! Any suggestions appreciated!
Thanks
Brian

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2006, 06:00:16 AM »

It sounds like you have the highbeam indicator wire on a dash light bulb.

bwaz · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2006, 07:50:00 AM »

sounds reasonable! That might help the light issue, and I'll see if it's such a closed circut that it helps the actual high/low beams change too.
thanks as always

Brian

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2006, 09:16:54 AM »

If the relay clicks when you pull the lever check for power at 56a and F (low and high beam terminals) on the relay, then look at the fuse box, yellow and white wires (2 fuses each) and maybe even test for power at the head light, could be burnt out. You didn't say if the dash light stays on after you let go of the lever or only comes on when pulled.

bwaz · « **Reply #14 on:** July 25, 2006, 10:31:51 AM »

At one point when I was moving things around before the big smoke incident, the high beams worked correctly. When the dimmer is turned down to nothing, and the signal is pulled for high beams the dash lights come on, let go and they're gone. I keep thinking I've got a ground missed somewhere, but may have to pull the headlight switch out, (I don't have the proper tool and have tried already) and check that the wires are correct. Another option is to pull the emergency flasher switch again and see that all the wires are correct there, even though it all works now. I thought there may be a short in the high beam lines, except that they did work for a while.....
B

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2006, 01:17:05 PM »

It sounds like you might have the dimmer wire from the signal switch hooked to a ground on the speedo. It's brown and white similar to the rest of the ground wires but only grounds when you pull the switch, if nothing is grounding your speedo for dash lights and you pull the highbeam switch it would ground the speedo and make the lights brighter, maybe.

It's supposed to go on S on the dimmer relay.

bwaz · « **Reply #16 on:** July 25, 2006, 10:38:30 PM »

Found a ground missing to the speedo chassis, replaced it but still with no real change. Checked the light switch and all seems ok there. Tried a few other combinations for the wire off it to the speedo but same results, now high and low beams with the dimmer off, and the speedo dash lights come on when the arm is pulled, then off when released. When the dimmer is up full, (no in between, just off or on) the high low beams don't change. Tried removing the high beam indicator light from the dash, no difference. Could I have blown out the headlight switch during my shorting of the dash light wire?
Running out of ideas....
thanks
Brian

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2006, 02:21:12 PM »

It sounds like you have the devil living in your dash. There's not much you can do to the headlight switch except cook the rheostat for the dash lights, that might explain the on or off but no in between, but won't usually cause problems like this. The headlight switch itself has nothing to do with high or low beam.

I wonder if the dash light wire and the dimmer wire melted together somewhere? Try taking the brown/white wire off the dimmer relay and attach it to your test light, try the dash lights and dimmer switch. It shouldn't light the test light at all. Now with the brown/white wire still on the test light attach the ground lead from the test light to positive power. Try the dimmer switch, it should light when pulled, try the dash lights again, headlights off and on, etc., your high beams wont change with the wire off but you need to find out what's going on.

bwaz · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2006, 10:38:53 PM »

So when I tried a tester on the wire from the signal arm, straight up nothing at all. When I applied power to the other side, while pulling the signal arm, light on for the high beam, lesser brightness for the low beam. I tried removing the balck and white wire from the light switch to the dimmer relay, the relay clicks and dash lights are even strength when light switch for dash lights on full and less, when turned down to nothing no dash lights at all. Funny though that when I return everything to normal and go through the process again, with the headlight switch on and dash lights full, dimmer will not change, as I move the dash lights lower and lower I can hear the relay getting louder and louder until it actually changes when totally off. Somehow, the changing of that intensity of the dash lights is altering the grounding, or non grounding of the dimmer relay? Did I mention the high beam indicator light is on strongly or less during this process too. I've swapped the dash light with the high beam indicator and at least the dash lights are on when the lights are on, but no high beam indicator. This way with the dashlights down to low, the headlights work high and low beams, and the dash lights are pretty consistent. The problem is not solved, but maybe enough to get me through the provincial inspection just not having a high beam indicator on the dash!
I'll keep digging. By the way, I got another wiring diagram from the samba and all seems correct there. I was wondering if the dimmer relay needed better grounding so rigged a temp ground to the top of it... no success
thanks again for the time you're taking to help!
Brian

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #19 on:** July 27, 2006, 06:34:14 AM »

Ahahhhhh, just figured it out, the ground wire to your signal switch is hooked to a dash light terminal someplace. That would also explain the smoke event, key buzzer grounded to door switch.

The relay doesn't need to be grounded, it grounds through the dimmer switch.

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #20 on:** July 27, 2006, 06:52:01 AM »

Just thought of something else though, make sure you find out where the signal switch body is getting that dash light power from before you go and add another ground to it or you'll cook the dash lights again.

bwaz · « **Reply #21 on:** July 27, 2006, 07:57:37 AM »

I saying signal switch, and signal switch body, do you mean the arm on the steering wheel or the flasher relay?
thnkx
brian

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #22 on:** July 27, 2006, 09:25:04 AM »

I mean the switch unit on the steering column that the arm comes out of. should have a brown wire that according to the diagram attaches to the ground on the back of the speedo. I think the horn wire is brown too so don't mix them up that one might go to the front harness.

bwaz · « **Reply #23 on:** July 27, 2006, 12:15:56 PM »

HMMMMM Sounds interesting... not at home to look at it, but I was missing a ground to the speedo and rigged one up to go from the chassis to that terminal, I'll have to look and find the one you speak off. Looks promising!
thanks again, hate to keep saying it, but I mean it!
Brian

bwaz · « **Reply #24 on:** July 27, 2006, 10:08:14 PM »

MAJOR CHANGE! Headlight high beams work ALL THE TIME! Dimmer light is still partially on when the headlights are on, and the dash lights are still on or off. I think the headlight switch is fried. THe rest works great. Once I get the inspection done, i'll have time to play further! Thanks for all the assistance, hope to catch up with you at the Coquitlam show, lunch is on me!
Brian