tankless hot water heater

[jim martin]

need to replace my hot water tank .
anyone made the switch to natural gas tankless from tank
let me know how you like it or if you figure its worth it

[josh]

Hey Jim, I've installed them in my last 2 houses, tankless are great but don't bother running one without a recirc loop! First time I retrofitted from a gas fired tank to a Rinai without recirc.....it sucked, basement was finished so adding a return loop was tough. Had to run taps for minuets in certain parts of the house to get hot water....pain in ass if just washing hands or??
This house i built and went all out, did a navian with internal pump and buffer tank. It's sweet! Have found it awesome over with the kids bathes and they are stupid efficient! I think if I did it again I'd do an external 5gal electric tank as a buffer....I don't really like how if using gas for recirc the cycle rates on the burner.....seems tough on things? Oh and insulate both hot and return lines!
There are also usually rebate grants that sweeten the deal! If want to yak more about them hit me up.

[rusty busty]

I'm in the business. I install lots of them. I say go with the navien if you're going to do it. I've had problems with other brands but call backs on naviens are rare.

They usually run about 3 - 4 times the cost of a conventional tank even with the rebate so payback takes a while. Whether or not it's worth it depends on how many people are in the house and how long you plan to live there etc. 

I only do retrofits so it's almost impossible to do a loop most of the time but it's not an issue with the navien I've found. That thing fires up within a second of opening the tap. There's no real delay in getting hot water to the tap compared to a conventional tank from my experience.

If you want you can pm me. I can give a good deal on both tankless and conventional water heaters.

Cheers

[jim martin]

thanks guys for the input .
this is one of those things its better to ask and read as there are so many options ,rusty i sent you a pm as well .
i did not even know about return circulation line,which makes total sense . but was aware of buffer tank.
my pipework on the house is fairly straight fwd , 2 levels , bsmt and main and all pipework goes from central in bsmt and runs in the bsmt ceiling and either drops down or up as needed ,so very short runs overall by fluke.
so thinking i may be ok as main bathrooms and kitchen are say 20 ' avg from tank .
all piping is plastic and insulated say 75%
what got me going was i was at home depot ,theye have a RHEEM 95 unit for $1500 not bad as a new hot water tank is $750 zone
even with the tank we have now 40 gallon hot water does not seam to be a issue ,

this is the unit http://cdn.globalimageserver.com/fetchdocument-rh.aspx?name=ecosense-condensing-95-direct-vent-indoor-performance-ecosense-condensing-tankless-spec-sheet
stainless coils .94 ef
- the more i read is this unit flows 9.5 gpm which is possibley overkill for my house ,so any advise on size would be great.
i looked into the rebate and i need to get it installed by a licenced tradesman as well as take out a permit with the city .the recomended home depot installer quotes $3900 for install but that does give it rebate status.but you know i have to do it myself ,just that kind of guy .
Josh,Rusty bus let me know what you think of this unit as well is it in the same price range and gpm of the units you use

[Twigman]

I'm in the business too.  Be prepared to cough up some additional cake if/when it fails.  They are all computer driven now.   And contrary to what a lot of people are led to believe, they have a life expectancy just like a HWT.   They will leak in time.

[josh]

Ya they are complicated electronic buggers! like anything these days that is the weak link! don't know anything about the rheem/ruud on demands but have heard stay far far away from Bosch! (fight your german urges! haha

I had the mixing valve go on my navian but wasn't that bad to swap. also worth mentioning these units benefit from a vinegar descale every couple years depending on water hardness in area. the 3 way valve kits made for tankless are really nice when doing services like this. oh and kinda picky with the specs on the LP line length between regulator and unit.....I had to add a couple feet of black iron after fact cause unit would throw odd code and shut down due to unstable gas pressure.

I have my B class gas ticket that got with my refrigeration 15 years ago but don't deal with gas on the day to day....just know enough to be dangerous and mess around with my own junk! I know u are fully capable Jim but in my opinion this is one of those things that should be a permitted job by a reputable ticketed company just in case something goes sideways liability/insurance wise especially in family home if know what I mean! as far as im aware homeowners can pull a gas permit still and if can find someone to give you a crash course of code shit could save some scratch? will defiantly have inspector checking your work tho

[Parts]

but have heard stay far far away from Bosch! (fight your german urges! haha

Unrelated, but we just bought a Bosch dishwasher to replace our old Bosch one. 23 years without so much as a hiccup, and whisper quiet. I just hope the new ones are built like the old ones.

[rusty busty]

Ya I agree. They are complicated computer driven machines. If you want something simple and reliable go with a conventional tank. The only way it'll pay for itself is if there's lots of people in the house or you have teenagers who spend an hour in the shower. Plus if your power goes out so does your hot water.

Gas isn't much to worry about. You'll smell it long before you blow up. Just make sure everything's tight, use pipe dope, check for leaks etc. I've been playing with gas since I was 15. I'm licensed in 3 provinces. I figure I've gassed up maybe 4000 houses from when I used to do new construction but all I do now is re&re's. I've probably change out about 1500 gas appliances in the lower mainland, mostly furnaces.

It's CO you need to worry about. That stuff will kill ya. You don't want to wake up dead😉

Don't take much advice from the guy working at home depot, or the counter jockeys at the plumbing wholesalers either. Most of the time they don't know what they're talking about. I've heard much more bad advise given out than good advice at those places.

[jim martin]

Thanks guys for your input ,I really appreciate it.and all excellent points.
My house with 4 women Seams to require a constant hot water supply.
So going to make some calls and do some more info digging.

I also see there are some very highly efficient condensing water tanks as well in the mid .94 ef range .just not sure of there price